Dr. Patricia Orozco is a Master Lecturer and functions as a cooperative education coordinator at Laurentian University in the Faculty of Management in Sudbury Ontario, where she has been since 2008. She is responsible for the work integrated learning (WIL) experiences of her students who are largely placed in small to medium sized business. Their WIL program features a deep partnership with the local business to insure success of the placement where students often do many jobs in the company. It also features an on-line companion course for students that provides WIL skill-building opportunities, reflection, teamwork, etc. It was very useful in keeping students on track when the university suddenly went to online operation in the face of the Covid19 pandemic in the early spring of 2020.
Topics discussed in this episode include:
Resources Discussed in this Episode:
Music Credits: C’est La Vie by Derek Clegg
ExperiencED Season 3, Episode 2
Jim Stellar: [00:00:00] Welcome to the ExperiencED podcast. I am Jim Stellar.
[00:00:12] Mary Churchill: [00:00:12] I am Mary Churchill
[00:00:13] Adrienne Dooley: [00:00:13] and I am Adrienne Dooley.
[00:00:15]Jim Stellar: [00:00:15] We bring you this podcast on experiential education
[00:00:18] Mary Churchill: [00:00:18] with educators and thought leaders
[00:00:20] Adrienne Dooley: [00:00:20] from around the country and the world.
[00:00:24] Jim Stellar: [00:00:24] Dr. Patricia Orozco Quijano is a master lecturer in marketing and management at Laurentian University in the faculty of management.
[00:00:33] She received her MBA from Laurentian University and a PhD in education and management. Previously, she got a BS degree in marketing from the Universidad de Guadalajara and did post-graduate work at the city university of London. She started her career as an entrepreneur at the age of 16 while she was still an undergraduate, was a radio host, senior marketing and pricing analyst, among other positions.
[00:00:57] She lived in France, Spain, London, before moving to Canada, she came to Laurentian in 2006, she became a master lecturer in 2008, and she oversees the will programs in the faculty of management. She also oversees the first accredited co-op program in Northern Ontario with CEWIL. In 2019, she was selected as Laurentian university, teaching fellow and experiential learning.
[00:01:26] Patricia is well known in the world of cooperative education in Canada and internationally for her research contributions to the field. And for her focusing on networking that she brings to her students, helping them connect with employers. She received the best research paper award, along with her co-authors at WACE, the World Association of Cooperative Education. She is a master of the virtual and social media world.
[00:01:47] Patricia, it's great to see you and have you with us. Thank you so much for agreeing to do this. let me jump right into our first question.
[00:02:01]as a cooperative education coordinator in the school of business, our first to be interviewed in this podcast, could you describe what you do with the students at Laurentian University?
[00:02:13] Patricia Orozco: [00:02:13] Thanks James to be here today. Well, in fact, an interesting role in university. I have different hats - the working integrated learning coordinator as well as a faculty member in the department of marketing and management.
[00:02:30] I have two different roles here. My role is to teach the students experiential learning courses, as well as to lead the unit and working together to learning.
[00:02:42] Jim Stellar: [00:02:42] So, can we focus on the students first? We know that you also work with employers and faculty. So, the focus on the students, because you start talking about what are some of your greatest challenges with the students in doing experiential education?
[00:02:56] Patricia Orozco: [00:02:56] Well, I guess one of the challenges that we face here is location. We are located in Northern Ontario. It's a small community. Therefore, we have a limited number of partners.
[00:03:09] Obviously depends on the year. We may have students that are looking for more opportunities and we may not be able to place all students for those working digital learning opportunities, just because we are limited.
[00:03:22] At the same time, Jen, we have between 80 to 90% of industries are small to medium sized businesses. So that makes and creates a specific environment for our students when they are starting work terms. As compared to, for example, big cities or communities, industries tend already to have employees that are fully dedicated to work with industry with academia, with different universities.
[00:03:53] They even have specific jobs that are defined for the students. We don't have that scenario heating Northern Ontario. So therefore, the challenge, which actually would turn it into an opportunity, is that our students have limited opportunities, but those opportunities tend to be different roles of the students taking those placements.
[00:04:16] So, are not well-defined are not as structured jobs that we see normally in big organizations, but students are exposed to different fields. For instance, if I take the example of a student in business, which probably is placed in a bigger organization, that job will be defined with specific area of business.
[00:04:38] But for example, hear in Northern Onatario, what we have seen is employers then to open more of those jobs and have students being exposed to the different areas of business. So, we have students doing a little bit of marketing, a little bit of a chart, a little bit of finance, versus, you know, at really a structured job that can happen in other places in Canada.
[00:05:01] So, yes, it's a challenge because we work with a specific number of organizations, industry partners that we have here in Northern Ontario. But I think the exposure, which is different tends to be an opportunity for our students.
[00:05:14] Jim Stellar: [00:05:14] Well, this is great. And this anticipated my second question about the strengths, but I'd like to ask you to elaborate a little bit more from the perspective of the students themselves, this sort of multimodal, interdisciplinary, almost activity on the work placement site.
[00:05:29] What kind of strengths do you think it really brings to the students in their own growth path?
[00:05:36] Patricia Orozco: [00:05:36] So, our students we work with, I really wanted to talk a little bit about the structure because I think that makes a huge difference in the university faculty of management. What we did, what we created, was working integrated learning (WIL) programs that are attached to courses.
[00:05:53] So we let the student complete a work term. And at the same time that the student is completing a work term, they are assigned to complete a full course online. So, we have put the member in this case is myself who is at the back door, working with a student while the student is exposed to those opportunities. That we realized after years, because we start our first co-op program with this particular model back in 2006,
[00:06:21] and we realize that those learnings outcomes tends to be bigger if we are exposing the student to that environment. So, we have faculty member that is behind the scenes supporting the student with whatever happens in that work environment.
[00:06:38] Jim Stellar: [00:06:38] That's excellent. excuse me, I didn't mean to interrupt.
[00:06:42] Patricia Orozco: [00:06:42] No. So just to say that that scenario, that is structured after our first initial program, which it was built in 2006, we realized that the model that we want to continue moving forward. And then we create an internship with the same structure where the student is exposed to this work term,
[00:07:01] but at the same time, is completing a full course online. And that course online has different pieces, different pedagogy that we use. And ultimately, we have two different objectives. The first objective is to of course, show students how to apply that theory that actually they learn in class. So, we put it more to life
[00:07:24] by using the examples and the experiences of the student are having. This is one main objective. And the second objective, we target a specific work skills. We drive to help students to realize what exactly they need prior. They started the work term and define those skills, and then work with those skills through the process, towards the end of the work term.
[00:07:49] Again, this is the tool that we use is the online setting. And of course, a faculty member is assigned to this experience.
[00:07:58] Jim Stellar: [00:07:58] This is so terrific. It seems like Laurentian University and the cooperative education program and the faculty are really companions with the students while they're doing their experience, which is something that
[00:08:10] I don't think happened back in my time, which was a long time ago at Northeastern University, where there was often the philosophy that we didn't want to touch the students while they're on coop, unless something was wrong because that would infantilize them. I think that was the mistake. I always did. I think what you're doing is really powerful and I think it really helped to develop the students, particularly in these work skills or power skills or even soft skills.
[00:08:34] I want to just ask one more tiny question. The employers. your, if you will companionship with the students while they're on their work experience, does that really help draw you closer to the employers or do they see that as interference? Talk about the employers for just a second.
[00:08:53] Patricia Orozco: [00:08:53] So, well, when we talk about employers, we have, I will say because of again, the context that we have, you know, small community, once again, you know, we're talking about medium to small size businesses.
[00:09:08] We need to do a lot of work on promoting our programs and for industry to recognize the value that it has for them. And also, we meet, and it's still, I mean, this is not still is not done yet. I mean, we ha we need to continue sending that message back to industry for them to know what's the value of having those students at the workplace.
[00:09:36] We also, in previous year, when we initiate this programs with this particular restructure, we put a lot of effort into, like helping industry how to create a specific job for a student who is probably in second, third, four year. Once again, they don't have a HR specialist per se, dedicated to work, be dedicated to institutions that we have seen, you know, for big organization.
[00:10:06] So we need to take that as this step and support them and guide them through the process. In some cases, some industry feel like they, they can partner with us and even they give us, you know, more, more word as to what the student can do depending of the project that they have. So, this is a really close relationship that we try to build with industry, particularly with the small to a once again, medium-sized businesses, which is completely different than big organizations.
[00:10:42] Jim Stellar: [00:10:42] Yeah. This is a really remarkable, experience for me because what I'm seeing is the incredible work that you're doing with both the students and the employer. For the students you're almost a mentor during the experience. And for the employer, you're almost part of their HR department or are their HR department. But the result seems to me the real deep engagement and that's what we really want from experiences, all over the place.
[00:11:06] It's what leads to maturity. I think that, I'm going to ask you then is to talk a little bit at a higher level now. With this experience behind you in this particular way that you, you do co-op, which I think is beautiful, how do you think the world is going? Canada in particular seems to have made a strong commitment.
[00:11:29] So learning from experience. I said that in part, because my daughter is an assistant professor at Mississauga University of Toronto in social psychology. And she occasionally talks to me about what she's seeing as a faculty member. It seems like Canada really has a big, strong commitment to this.
[00:11:49] Do you think this is the way of the future for the whole world for education? Do you think we all need to be doing this?
[00:11:55] Patricia Orozco: [00:11:55] this? I think what Canada has been doing over the past, I will say six years, is just remarkable. I'm extremely proud. I have been in this field for over 14 years and I never, never had experienced so much attention on work integrated learning before.
[00:12:15] So, organizations such as the WIL has been doing a great job over the past 20, 15, 10 years. But just seeing now that, there is, other stakeholders involved and as engage in that discussions, just remarkable. we have seen for the first time in the history that government is supporting industry .
[00:12:39] to create this huge collaboration. So really is conversations that are happening between all stakeholders. We have seen organizations, industry leaders, government, all post-secondary institutions, part of the conversation. This is extremely powerful, and I have to say that in other countries still they are behind.
[00:13:06] So we feel very proud and I have to say then since 2015, we have seen a huge chip, even in our region. we used to a lot explain our industry what it means, an internship versus a co-op and what exactly is working figurative learning today. They received the message from other resources, not only from, in this case, Laurentian University. They hear it because the government is connecting with them in a regular basis.
[00:13:36] The professional organizations as well, they are connecting with industry to inform about the benefits of WIL. And what is more outstanding is that finally we are crafting a national work integrated learning strategy. So, I think where there. And, hopefully we will continue growing this strategy as the time coms this by the challenges that we are facing today.
[00:14:02] Jim Stellar: [00:14:02] Well, it is a remarkable achievement as a nation. And I must say, as an American, I'm jealous, I live in the Northern part of New York and I crossed the border all the time to go visit my daughter in Toronto. But given that I've devoted my life to experiential learning and was part of a university Northeastern that was a hundred years in the cooperative education world,
[00:14:23] it's such a joy to see you at Laurentian backed up by this national organization that really helps to solve some of the problems that, of understanding at least. It's great for Canada. I'd like to say Canada rules, but then that might get me in trouble with some of my American friends.
[00:14:41] But, but it's really delightful to see it. We talked a little bit about your university, which is about 9,000 students. and it's about 400 kilometers north of Toronto. And you mentioned the sort of smallish, environment, which might lead to more integration between you and the small businesses that might benefit the students more.
[00:15:01] But I wanted to just give you an opportunity to, something else, if you want it to about Laurentian university before we skipped over that question. Is there something you'd like to add?
[00:15:12] Patricia Orozco: [00:15:12] Absolutely. I will say that were capable to provide a structure that I just mentioned before because of the number of students that we have.
[00:15:21] I keep my mind still around of like, what if we have, you know, a thousand students that they have to complete that call, how that will work. Right. We, we have, we're at capable to, to be at the back scene with the student and faculty, you know, working closely with us to then making sure that the learning process is.
[00:15:44] successful. With a different pedagogy we’re capable to work with the industry really, really close to, to be able to develop whatever jobs do we need in our units. But once again, if you know, if those numbers go up, how that would look like. I think that in Northern Ontario, we are comfortable to,
[00:16:05] we're capable to do what we do. But I always have this question how that learning process change if we don't have the same as scenario. But yeah, Laurentian university is it's really proud. We can say that we received the first national accreditation here in Northern Ontario.
[00:16:26] The program that I lead, it which is in the faculty of management, we expanded since 2015. Maybe after we seen more, more government initiatives, coming up to implement more WIL opportunities at the Master level. Through my, role as teaching fellow at which I started last year, I have been helping students, and of course, faculty to increase our capacity.
[00:16:54] It is in our mandate to continue offering at least one experiential learning opportunity for each student. So, my job as teaching fellow has been, you know, trying to help students achieve that, to recognize the value of WIL, to look for the different resources that we have internally, as well as externally. And on the other side, work with faculty to, for them to understand what it means, working peer learning.
[00:17:24] I think my role as teaching fellow has been helping, you know, faculty that are interested in providing that exposure to students. Not only with work terms, I will say as well in the classroom. We want to connect with more organization, organizations seem to seek whatever, feel at ease and, and bring those connections into the classroom.
[00:17:47]Jim Stellar: [00:17:47] That that's terrific. if it's okay, I'm going to pivot a little bit to you personally. I heard you won the 40 under 40 award for 2019. Congratulations for that was from the Northern Ontario business association. But what really intrigued me was that they cited in that award that you had started a business when built it into 17 employees by the time you were 19.
[00:18:09] That makes you an entrepreneur. Could you talk a little bit about how that entrepreneurial you, that is the person who started a business and finds in a university in your position as co-op coordinator? How do you bring entrepreneurship, and it seems like you do, to your job?
[00:18:28] Patricia Orozco: [00:18:28] Well, I think I got this, intrapreneurial mindset since I was little. More than that I would say. People laugh at me at school because I was always coming up with ideas as to how to create a business. So certainly, I have that entrepreneurial mindset since I was literally like 10 years old. By the age of 17, I just came up with this idea.
[00:18:54] I didn't have necessarily the money. But sometimes, you know, good ideas come to the right people and you get the support to be able to venture. And that's what I did. I opened a business back in Mexico, where I am from, I'm originally from in Mexico. I was born and raised in now the second biggest city in Mexico, which is called Guadalajara.
[00:19:14] So back then I was able to launch a business with my sister. I didn't expect that result. So, after two years I hired over 17 or 20 employees around those numbers. We became a huge success. I was dedicated to events. So, I was connecting with different organizations and I organized the massive events they got through the year, such as Christmas events, for example, for, Hewlett Packard. And everything has started with my sister and I just dressing up at clown.
[00:19:49] They leave how everything is started. but I think pursuit then is one of the skills that I keep in my life. I left my country at the age of 20. And since then, you know, I have been in different parts of the world, experiencing different things, differ jobs, and settle in Sudbury, which I feel is home for me now.
[00:20:10] I have to say that this particular recognition that I received. I was very, very proud that I got it from, industry and partners that I have been working with over the last 12 years. Those were the ones that nominate me, but it got different meaning in fact, because I'm not from this region. And not from this city. So, having,
[00:20:30] you know, such a recognition from a place that you are not from, it just make me feel more proud. Again, I'm not from here, but I feel like I'm from here. I'm very, very proud of this community.
[00:20:46] Jim Stellar: [00:20:46] And you began your education before you began your formal education. You had really a whole experiential learning yourself, which is I think a fantastic and important.
[00:20:58] And I think that's really terrific. And you are a role model to your students. So, I hope they all know that you did this. I was quite impressed. we're coming to, the, the end of this and I wanted to actually talk about a social issue, if that's all right. You know, from my knowledge of Canada from years of traveling up there, even before I had children as a scientist, I wouldn't give talks in Ottawa and Montreal, Concordia, Toronto. Canada has a reputation of being a friendly country.
[00:21:28] And, you're someone, as you mentioned of Mexican heritage. Right now, as you clearly observed across the border, America is under a Black Lives Matter social movement, which seems to be highlighting certain features of systemic discrimination, perhaps in policing, in other areas. I want to just ask you, to talk a little bit from a personal perspective about the value of diversity and inclusion in preparing college students for jobs after graduation.
[00:22:00] Patricia Orozco: [00:22:00] Yeah, certainly diversity is in Canadian groups. we will live in a diversity community. We embrace diversity. I will say from my personal experience, it is still not a hundred percent perfect, but is much better than in many other places around the world. So, I think I have a huge role with my students.
[00:22:28] With my students and also with the industry, because I worked with both. So, I always tried to show my students to value diversity because ultimately that is component of success to any professional, even to any organization. So, I have to explain to my students that in the classroom, out of the classroom, but also, I do the same thing with the employers.
[00:22:53]I've worked with international students and sometimes working with international students and place international students; it means a little bit more work. That's just because we have to educate our industry as to what is the value that this particular group brings to, to, to them.
[00:23:14] So, like I said, I take that additional step just because of my background. I feel like I have to champion that. And even though that if we already in a small community, that still again is not hundred percent diverse ,so.in a sense, I think, that we are working towards that more closely. And, yeah,
[00:23:40] Jim Stellar: [00:23:40] Well, it's a, it's a nice moment for me to see, because the thing that is effective and productive is also the right thing to do. It's the humane thing to do. And that's always great when these two purposes combine. Let me switch a little bit to another social issue, and that is our virtual world driven by COVID.
[00:23:59] I noticed that last May you co-taught a webinar put on by the Ontario Council for University Lifelong Learning on virtual internships and innovative approaches. Could you speak a little bit about how you guys are handling the distance that is imposed on us, social distancing by COVID, and what you think it's going to mean for the future in some post pandemic world a few years from now.
[00:24:26] How does virtual play into your life now and in the future as a co-op coordinator?
[00:24:32] Patricia Orozco: [00:24:32] So, particularly for us, it was an interesting case. Back in March, our students were already at the workplace or were completing work terms as part of either one of our different working digital learning programs.
[00:24:50] But after the pandemic, after we closed, you know, several industries close, even the university closed, what we noticed is that we were able to be in contact with the students during those difficult times through the structure that I just mentioned before the online course, you know, in this case myself reaching the students to know
[00:25:13] how they were doing. You know, they were sharing to me that different experience than challenges that we're facing with industry. So, I think that was, for us anyway, it's really helped us to understand how the student was doing during those times. And as well as to help the student. As you know, industry were trying to store things out, from all kinds of issues like sending employees back home asking them to work from home.
[00:25:43] So a lot of our students were struggling just to understand what to do, how to do that. So, we were behind the scene once again, supporting them and trying to guide them through the process. So, they were not alone during those times. So, we realize that our online program and our online course became really important.
[00:26:09] In fact, a key element during the pandemic. We were able to use even those challenges for students to, you know, be able to reflect on the different skills that they were inconsistently developing during that time. Like, for example, resilience, you know, and problem solving. And I can really list you a serious of skills that the students during that time, they were able to reflect.
[00:26:37] Without necessarily being exposed to the work experience, but it was part of the work experience. So, we just realized after the pandemic, and by the end of the summer that this particular online course became really beneficial for the time. And, so we were able to share, I was able to share in this webinar how it is important to connect with a student in a regular basis, because we can use that experiences as good learning opportunities as well.
[00:27:15] Jim Stellar: It's especially important in the timeliness of it, because if the student has a bad experience and you can see help them see that as a challenge, as opposed to a defeat, then they rise up and they continue to the learning as opposed to get discouraged and maybe even leave the university. So, years from now, when the pandemic is over, and students are back.
[00:27:35] To some extent working in the workplace. I assume you're going to keep this course, this virtual contact with them and all these benefits, like the one we just spoke of a meeting, a challenge should obtain is, is that your plan to keep this course in the future?
[00:27:53] Patricia Orozco: I think one of the questions that different regions are having is what is the best model to use.
[00:28:03] ] We realized that having the structure that we have today is very successful for students. However, financially, is it possible? That is the next question. Whether having a faculty assigned fully dedicated as well as a coordinator fully dedicated ... how much of that we can do? I mean, I really believe in this structure and I showcase the tremendous value that it has, you know, just that the online
[00:28:31] course itself, as well as the work experience combined. But certainly, the times are changing. You know, some institutions are, are, experiencing different financial challenges. So, I think that question really goes back to the institution to say, what is it that they can offer? I think regardless of the structure, the students, she'll be exposed
[00:28:54] to work experience, just to any work, integrated learning experience, whatever shape and form it takes. This structuring is it's actually one of those, questions that come to my mind say what is the best a scenario that we can have for all units with regardless of the field, regardless of the area, regardless of the number of students, regardless of the region, right?
[00:29:21] But, I think we are in a good time in Canada, as I explained that is, you know, a whole list strategy, nationally strategy. Everybody is alert of what is WIL, what it means WIL for all the stakeholders, including most importantly, our students, which are ultimately our future professionals.
[00:29:42] Jim Stellar: [00:29:42] I must say that as a former provost of two institutions and interim president at one, I really liked your answer because it seems to combine the whole university approach in service of the students.
[00:29:53] I also think it marks you as a future academic leader. So someday, I'll be back to interview you as well for provost.
[00:29:59] Patricia Orozco: [00:29:59] I don't know this time.
[00:30:03] Jim Stellar: [00:30:03] Well, see, is there anything you want to add? Cause we're really about at the end of time, for our interview.
[00:30:09]Patricia Orozco: [00:30:09] Well, it was a pleasure to talk to you today. I think, you said very interesting times for the WIL all over the world. I have been seeing, like, I have been exposed to different practices in other countries, even in my own country, such as Mexico.
[00:30:26] And it's interesting to see what they are doing back there. I work with different institutions. I implement different programs. I have done work in other parts of other countries as well in Latin America. So, it's interesting to see that in which phase they are as compared to Canada. And that just made me come back and feel more proud for the work that we have been doing regardless, you know, of where we are.
[00:30:55]I think that our students can really speak on behalf of what this experience means to them. So, when I hear back from them, you know, about where they are and on how successful they are as professionals. That just makes me really proud because they said that this particular component of the degree was extremely important for them.
[00:31:15] So we'd have to keep it going and keep doing what we do.
[00:31:20] Jim Stellar: [00:31:20] And I like the fact that you're learning as well as teaching in these other places in the world. It is one world. As you know, I'm also part of the World Association of Cooperative Education and see WIL as a member of that. And I do think we have an obligation to both learn and to teach
[00:31:36] from programs around the world, and that diversity is really powerful. Well, let me thank you again for taking the time to do this. I very much appreciate it. It's really terrific. thank you so much.
[00:31:49] Patricia Orozco: [00:31:49] Thank you.
[00:31:50] Mary Churchill: [00:31:50] Thank you for listening. We hope you will come back soon for the next installation of ExperiencED
[00:31:56] Adrienne Dooley: [00:31:56] as we continue to talk about the neuroscience and sociology of enhancing higher education
[00:32:02] Jim Stellar: [00:32:02] by combining direct experience with classical academic learning.